Len 00:02
Welcome. My name is Len Lane, and I am the founder and president of Brokers for Life Inc., and we are Dominion Lending Centers in Western Canada. The topic of our podcast will be about what we consider to be Real Life Mortgage Solutions. Welcome back. My special guest today is the most interesting lawyer I have ever met. She is a world traveler. She is a pad certified Open Water Diver. She is a private pilot with a seaplane endorsement, not sure how useful that is in Calgary. She is the founder of the Resolve Law Group in Calgary. She is a family mediator and she’s a private investigator, and I don’t doubt that last one at all. So my special guest today is Cyndy Morin of Resolve Legal Group. Is that correct?

Cyndy 00:51
That’s correct. I opened Resolve Legal Group in 2011 and originally it was just myself and one assistant, and we have just continued to grow for the last 14 years, and I attribute that to the excellent team that I have, and also the unique way that we deliver services at Resolve.

Len 01:17
And what makes that unique? I know the divorce separation industry. Unfortunately, it’s very busy. So what is it that Resolve is doing a little bit different?

Cyndy 01:27
Well, it kind of dates back to the days before I was a lawyer. So years ago, when I was 27 my husband had passed away, and at the same time, my best friend was going through separation, and what I noticed was, when you’re a grieving widow, people will babysit your kids, they will bring you casseroles. They just wrap around you and get you through that process of grieving. But my best friend, nobody was there for her. It was, oh, big deal you’re getting a separation, right? Because it’s so commonplace to hear about separation and divorce, and I couldn’t even be there for her because I was going through my own grief. So fast forward, years later, after my husband passed away, I had to go back to school because I was a stay at home mom, and when he passed away, our income was instantly cut off because we were young and he was a contractor, and we didn’t have savings, and we didn’t have life insurance. We didn’t think we needed all of that. And here’s something that you can touch on. Len we didn’t even have mortgage insurance. We had just bought our first home, and we had just moved back to Calgary after doing a project up north, and I said to my husband, I said, well, we’ve been out of the market for a couple of years with your business here in Calgary, we’ve got a baby on the way, and we’ve got two other babies at home, so let’s keep our costs low, and we’ll put mortgage insurance on later. We’re young. We’ve got many years. And four months after moving into our brand new home, he passed away, and of course, we didn’t have insurance, so I lost the house everything. But like I said, when you’re a grieving widow, you have all kinds of people that just come and support you through that. But yet, when people are going through separation and divorce, sometimes they lose a house, or they go through similar experiences that I had, but there’s a lack of support for them, and even though there may be well meaning family and friends, sometimes you know that isn’t what you need during that time, right? Sometimes you just need somebody objective to kind of walk you through everything and explain the process. So when I, fast forward several years later, when I became a lawyer and eventually wanted to open my own firm, I thought back to that time, and I thought, how can I do things different? How can I set up a firm that’s going to support people through this gruelling process better than what’s happening so far. So one of the things that we did, one of the first things we did, was we set up a role called the Client Support Coordinator. We’re the only family firm in Alberta that I’m aware of that has a client support coordinator, and it was a role created by us that would have three different, three different roles within one role, if you will. So one of the things that we have our Client Support Coordinator do is we have them do all of our intakes, and they then match the client with the lawyer that’s best suited to their matter. So for instance, I like to do custody work, so a lot of the files that get farmed to me are custody files. That being said, we don’t want any of our lawyers being one trick ponies. So we do make them do other areas as well, but we try to give them the work that they enjoy, because then they don’t procrastinate, and lawyers are famous for procrastinating, but if they enjoy the work, they actually get it done. So might as well give it to the lawyers who are good at it and enjoy it so that the file moves along. Another role of the Client Support Coordinator is they are there as kind of an ombudsman. So I’ve given them the power within the role that if there are any complaints about your lawyer or your bill or anything like that, you take it to the client support coordinator. She’s been given a certain level of powers to try to resolve those complaints just within her capacity. And if that isn’t resolved, she will escalate it to me, and then I take a look at things from there. Like with any business, sometimes there’s not a good fit between the lawyer and the client, so we want to make sure that the client feels comfortable complaining about the lawyer without having to worry about somebody spitting in their soup. So we have her role set up that when we have calls come in where people have a complaint, she keeps it anonymous. So for instance, when clients first come to see me, I give them a sheet of what they can expect from our lawyers, such as, we will return phone calls within 48 business hours. Or somebody will, like, if I’m in trial and I can’t, my assistant will, but somebody will contact you within 48 business hours. That’s one of our criteria, and we have a whole list. So just as an example, I’m terrible, for returning phone calls. I’m better with emails or whatever. So if I have dropped the ball and not returned a phone call within those 48 business hours, clients know, even though that, even though I’m the owner of the firm, they know that they can call client support. And I’m telling you, I have tried to get the information out of her. I’m like, Oh, come on, I’m the owner, just tell me who it is. She will not do it. She is so held to that position of confidentiality. So what she does, though, we don’t do it to get anybody in trouble. We do it so that our lawyers are always working at their best, and we use it as a coaching tool. So if the client support coordinator comes to me and says, Cyndy, we’ve been having a lot of complaints that you’re not returning calls within 48 business hours. What can we do to support you so that you’re able to make those calls, or what’s going on with your practice that you’re unable to make those calls. And then that way, we’re making sure that our lawyers are always working at their best, while also ensuring that the clients are getting their needs met. So it’s nice to have that checks and balance in place, and to know that you can go to somebody and tell them anonymously, they won’t even tell the owner and get their issue resolved. The third part of her role is, we know from the research that when you have to tell your story over and over, it can be re-traumatizing if you’ve had a traumatizing experience such as domestic violence. So part of her role is to act as a liaison between the clients and supports with different community organizations that we’ve partnered with over the years. So for instance, we have a partnership with Calgary Counseling Center. So if somebody’s really struggling emotionally, our Client Support Coordinator will get them to sign a consent release, and she will then contact the Calgary counseling center on the client’s behalf, tell the story and help with the intake. Because I know for me, when I was going through my grieving process, it was like walking through mud, even just to make one phone call. Everything felt so insurmountable that having somebody to help you with that just lightens your load a little bit while you’re trying to deal with your legal matter, there are absolutely no fees associated with client support. So there’s no charge for her services. That’s a free service that we offer to help support clients through their divorce. Another thing that we do is at the firm, we invite other professionals that can benefit our clients to work on site at the firm once a week, just so clients have easy access to them. So we have Trish Guise, who is a Forensic Coercive Control Solutions who comes to work one day at the office at a local at our office, and one day a week, we have a child psychologist. We also have a parenting specialist and a financial advisor, all of which who come and work at our firm once a week so that we can easily have clients, meet with them and liaise with them if they have information that can help their file as well. Another thing we do is we know that not everybody can afford a lawyer, especially in these economic times. It’s really tough because lawyers are expensive, without a doubt, so we have set up other options for clients to be able to access resources while they’re self representing. One of those is our Resolve Legal Group seminar series.

Len 09:48
I saw that the other day actually.

Cyndy 09:52
Yeah, so we just actually taught a course last night on financial disclosure and child support. These seminars are very well attended. I used to teach them years ago at Chinook College, and the Alberta Law Foundation used to fund them. They would pay for the space and everything, and then I would volunteer my time and teach. And Chinook College eventually closed down, and then COVID happened, so we hadn’t done seminars for quite a while, but we revived them this year, just because we saw the increased need out there, with people needing help but who are unable to get access to a lawyer for whatever reason, financially or whatever. So that’s another thing that we do different. We also have our accounts manager separate from the lawyer. So usually when you go to a law firm, it’s your lawyer and the assistant who will do their billings and will bill the client. The client then pays the firm, blah, blah, blah. We do it different. We keep the accounting completely separate, so that it deters lawyers from padding bills because they’re just entering their time and they don’t know how much they’ve actually made on any particular file until we do the Billings. Not that I have any worry that any of my lawyers would pad their bills. But I have in the past, had people working for me that their bills were questionable, and we were always giving discounts and that sort of thing because of it. And I don’t want people on our team that do that. So it’s our way of identifying is there a problem, before it becomes a problem. So that’s worked out really well. Also, we want assistants and lawyers to be focusing on the legal work. We don’t want them doing the bill collecting and all of that. We want somebody separate for doing that. You wouldn’t get a call from your dentist asking to pay your bill. So we keep that separate and let the lawyers just focus on the work that they love to do.

Len 11:42
The dentist model. We hear about that a lot in our own industry, where you shouldn’t be doing the admin part yourself. You should have someone doing that for you, right? So.

Cyndy 11:52
Exactly. And somebody that’s more effective at it, right? Because we’re not taught to be bill collectors. Well, some lawyers are, but as family lawyers, we’re not taught to be bill collectors or anything like that, and it also makes it uncomfortable for the client, right? So if they have a an issue with their bill, they’re likely to bring it up with the Accounts Manager rather than their lawyer, because everybody’s afraid that their lawyer might get upset or whatever. So we try to eliminate those kinds of problems by setting things up the way that we have. Also at our firm, we have what’s called the Step Forward Program. So that’s been in effect for about eight years. We have several businesses in town that give exclusive discounts to our clients and their opposing party and their former spouse. It’s for the entire family. So it’s not just for our clients, it’s for their kids, their ex spouse, whatever, because we know when we’re taking one family unit and dividing it into two, there’s always money stressors, because you’ve got to readjust your budget. And we’ve seen over the years that it takes, usually about one or two years for people to kind of ease into a new budget. So the Step Forward Program allows them to get certain discounts on from businesses that we know people would regularly use as a family. So that would be like haircuts, sometimes they have to buy a new car. So Nissan was one of our Step, I think they still are one of our Step Forward Partners. And we also give some exclusivity to the businesses too. So for instance, we had Royal Oak Nissan as one of our Step Forward Partners, but we would not use another Nissan brokerage in Calgary, and we had Camp Clark Ford from Airdrie as one of our Step Forward Partners. So we wouldn’t use another Ford company in Calgary. We would want to drive business to them, because they’re the ones that are helping our clients. Essentially, it works out to if you help our clients through this time, we will help to bring those clients to you because you’re giving them a discount. And at the same time, we promote those businesses for free as our way of thanking them for taking care of our clients. I’ve also negotiated contracts for those businesses to get discounts for helping our clients. So for instance, if you’re a Step Forward Partner, you can get a discount on a membership with the Better Business Bureau, or you can get 15% off from Copy Co. or Cochrand Now radio station gives discounts on radio ads if you’re a Step Forward Partner, that sort of thing. So we always look at things from a win win model. How can we benefit those businesses that are helping our clients? How can we help those clients have some ease on their financial pressures while they’re restructuring their budgets? And that’s always been well received. And we call our step forward partners. We call them companies that care, because they really do. We also vet the companies that are in our step forward program, so they are either companies that I’ve used personally or somebody at our firm has used personally and has had a good experience with. So we’re very careful about who we co-brand with, and people can trust the people that we put in our Step Forward Program to do a good job for them. The exception to the exclusivity rule is things like such as yourself, mortgage brokers, realtors, accountants, we tend to put three. So when somebody has to deal with a professional one on one, rather than a product based business, we know that you have to have a good fit with the person that you’re working with, so we like to give them an option of three in those circumstances. So that’s a little hint, Len, we need you in our Step forward Program.

Len 15:25
And our company slogan is Real Life Mortgage Solutions, so it kind of fits right in there. But, as is this podcast called Real Life Mortgage Solutions. And you know that that’s your concept, is your in-house person in our industry, we call them the Directors of Wow, right? The people that take care of all of the things that making sure that the client is taken care of, that they’re up to date and that they do all that kind of things that, yes, a busy mortgage broker, not unlike a busy lawyer, things get lost. My voicemail says, if you want to get hold of me sooner, send me an email. I might not get back to my your voicemail for several days so I would be in trouble as a regular basis.

Cyndy 16:03
Yup, you would have the Client Support Coordinator breathing down your neck.

Len 16:07
Exactly, right. So, so obviously, a big part of divorce. You know, it’s funny, I have been through it twice myself, but how you talked earlier about the similarities with losing a spouse, but and the psychologist that I went to with my children after my first divorce was she said that this right now is the same as a death in your family or something or death, that the feelings are the same for that same amount of time, and they she compared it to that when the kids and I went through that stuff so but yeah, no, it sounds like you guys do an amazing job. I have several friends in your portion of the industry, but I’m pretty sure their offices aren’t going anywhere near that level of care for the client, right? And that is a big part of it. So as we know, real estate a big part of divorces on a regular basis. What are some of the things I guess clients should be thinking about in the process of what happens with the property, or properties in some cases during the process?

Cyndy 17:04
So it’s always good when you’re going through this process, if you’re planning to sell the house, say it’s always a good idea to get a team of professionals that you can agree upon between yourself and your spouse. If that’s possible, not always possible because some families have a lot of conflict and they’re unable to agree on anything. But if you can try to work with your spouse on a business level and say, Look, this is going to go much smoother and less expensive for us, if we can agree on the team of professionals that’s going to work with us at the outset. So let’s line up a mortgage broker. Let’s line up a realtor. Let’s line up all the people that we need to get this job done. And if you do that before you go see your council, that will save you a lot of money, because usually it’s council that will make those arrangements. But if you’re able to do it at your own kitchen table with your spouse, even though those may be difficult conversations, that’s a really good way to save on money. It’s also a good idea to get all of your financial disclosure prior to seeing your lawyer. So last night, when we were teaching the financial disclosure and child support seminar, we explained that if you can get a copy of the checklist, which, by the way, we give out free to anybody, if you get a copy of the disclosure checklist, have all of that stuff gathered before you go see your lawyer, because that seems to be the thing that delays files a lot, is exchanging financial disclosure. And it is mandatory to exchange financial disclosure. There’s no getting around it. In Alberta, your separation agreement is not legally binding. It is not worth the paper it’s written on unless you’ve had in a full exchange of financial disclosure, independent legal advice and a certificate signed by the lawyer for the independent legal advice. And also, you must sign your agreement in a separate room from your spouse. So sometimes, when people go to mediation, they forget that piece, and myself as a litigator, if somebody quickly signed an agreement and they did it in mediation but had not yet gotten that independent legal advice that gives me an opportunity to negate that contract if it’s not working in my client’s best interests. So it’s very important that you get all of your information together at the outset, build that team of support, which, by the way, if you come to our firm, obviously we would have client support help you with that. But if you don’t have that option, if you’re working with a lawyer that doesn’t have client support at their firm. A, put the bug in their ear, because I think all firms should have it. It’s a godsend to the clients. But B, you can also do it yourself by making sure that you put together your own solid team of people that you’re going to go through. Refinancing is a big thing. So usually when parties separate, one person. Buys the other person out of their share of the value of the home. That’s ideal, if you can make it work, because then you’re not paying realtor fees, etc, etc. You just have to go through a refinance. So they would be contacting you, Len for that, to get the mortgages in place, set up the refinance, pay the other person out, etc. One of the things I will tell people is, Do not sign a Separation Agreement until you have the money. So sometimes people will get a mortgage commitment. And I’ve seen this happen early on in my career, actually, with one of the lawyers I used to work with, very senior counsel, he told his client, get your mortgage approved, etc, etc. He had a mortgage commitment letter, but then something went sideways, and they revoked it, so he never got the funds, but the agreement had been executed. So myself as a junior back in those days, the file was dumped on me and told Okay, now go fix this. So I learned very early on in my career how to be a fixer, but it’s always more cost effective if you can be preventative of that stuff. So make sure you have the funds in place more than just the mortgage commitment letter before you execute those documents.

Len 21:18
And that is one mortgage commitment. It’s a nice piece of paper, but it’s really just given us a list of things that need to be verified, right? So we put into place here in the last couple of months, everybody’s doing pre approval, because the market is busy, but we’re actually doing what’s called the verified pre approval, where you we want all the documents up front. In this case, it would have been at least the initial agreement on the separation of the property and things like that, right? And that would have formed part of all the documents that would have been sent to the lender. Getting a commitment back, you can, I can get you a commitment back in less than an hour, usually with some of our lenders. Because, I’ve worked with them for a long time, 18 years. In some case, that is a common error, and I’ve seen Realtors do it as well, to remove conditions on files, by just the commitment letter, as opposed to something that that I actually signed or sent them right, or an agent sent them. So, yeah.

Cyndy 22:11
Yeah, that’s a really good way to make your lawyer rich.

Len 22:14
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And or you’re going to pay a lot more for the mortgage, because you may end up having to go to the C, World of private lenders, or worst case, a B lender, where the debt servicing numbers are higher. Do you know many of your clients use the actual CMHC spousal buyout program. Are you familiar with that?

Cyndy 22:35
I haven’t seen that lately. Most people just end up getting the money through the assets. So for instance, if somebody has a lot of investments and they have to split that money, but they have enough in their portion of the shared investment to buy the other out of the house, we usually just do transfers like that. Yeah, I haven’t seen any of the CMHC program stuff for years, but worthwhile to talk about it. Is there some information on that?

Len 23:08
It’s just really, it allows them, as part of the separation agreement, to go back to almost to 95% of the property value, right? So would be in cases where, yes, there’s not, maybe not a lot of equity on another party between the parties, right? So it’s just another way for them to because refinancing can only go back to 80% these days, but that spousal buy out program surpasses that and will let us go back to a full 95% of the property value. So it’s just a extra tool that with lower asset or less assets. It’s something that we see quite often, actually. But it’s younger couples, possibly, as opposed to older couples who are splitting up property that they bought in Calgary in the 80s or seven or 90s, right? So a lot of difference that way as well. So yeah.

Cyndy 23:59
We should probably put together a seminar. Well, I think we have one coming up on property division in the fall, but maybe we should have you come in and talk about different options for people.

Len 24:11
Sure. Yeah, no more than willing to do that. I know it’s a market that some brokers won’t deal with at all. They find that it’s maybe too intense for them, I guess. But I get it. I know what’s going on, so I guess maybe that’s part of why I seem to end up with quite a few of them over the years. Right? So any other tips for listeners on common law, property, things like that? What common law rules in Alberta are, I think, fairly straightforward, but maybe not.

Cyndy 24:39
I think they’re fairly straightforward. I mean, usually when you’re dividing property, the presumption is it’s going to be a 50-50, split on the assets. There’s no legal presumption that that the debt will be split equally. But more often than not, it is, unless there’s really good reason not to, and that would be a situation where somebody was dissipating assets, or had a huge gambling debt, that sort of thing, we’re not going to have the spouse share in that. If the court will allow us to make it an unequal division, and oftentimes in those circumstances, they will just depending on the circumstances, of course. And I guess the big takeaway is, as much as you can agree to with your partner at the kitchen table. That’s going to be the least cost to you, with you having the most control over the outcome. The other end of that spectrum is court, which is the most expensive for you, and I say 99.9% of the time, because sometimes mediation can be more expensive than litigation, if you don’t have a skilled mediator, or if you have a party that is not acting in good faith at mediation. So in those circumstances, I always say you can’t reason with the unreasonable, and sometimes you do have to go to court to get their attention, but it doesn’t mean you have to stay in a litigation track. But nonetheless, the other end of the spectrum from your kitchen table, is going to court, and in that process, it’s the least control that you have, because it’s a third party making a decision, and it’s also the most expensive. So I see my job as a lawyer, as putting things in place so that I can work myself out of a job and that my client won’t need to keep coming back to me. I think that a family lawyer’s footprint on a file should be as minimal as possible, and we want to be empowering our clients to be able to Manage scenarios as they come up, because oftentimes we’ve divided the property. That’s fine, but you oftentimes have kids that you have to co-parent with beyond the marriage. So in those circumstances, the more that you can try to keep the emotions down and try to look at your former partner as a co-parent and like a business partner, almost where you’re restructuring just I know it’s easier said than done, but putting the hurt aside for a moment, loving your kids more than you hate your spouse to have those important conversations that will get you through at a minimal cost to you and and when I say minimal cost, I don’t even just mean financially, but I also mean emotionally, because when we’re fighting, things get said and things get taken out of context, and we make bad business decisions when we have visceral reactions to things. We can make better business decisions or decisions about our family If we’re using our headspace rather than our gut reaction.

Len 27:43
And that’s a hard part. Small story on my first divorce was after we’d been divorced for a while, I changed occupations and finally broke down and became a salesman, and of course, my income had almost tripled and I went back to court to give her more money for my son. Yeah, I know I lost my tax deduction, but it was just more for my son than anything else. That was the emotional part was still raw, even five seven years later, whatever that was, and the lawyer looked at him say, He wants to give you more money. What does he want? I didn’t want anything. He just wanted my son to have some extra money so that his life could be better as well. Yeah. So in some, for some, I think that raw part never really, ever goes away, right? So.

Cyndy 28:28
Well, it doesn’t, if they ignore it, right? So one of the benefits of having a partnership with the Calgary Counseling Center is they’re so accessible, they work on a sliding scale, and their skill set over there is incredible. The director of the Calgary Counseling Center is absolutely fantastic. Not only do they work on a sliding scale, but they tend to get people in relatively quickly, and they do such great work with our clients. So if money is ever a barrier, that’s definitely an option to help support you emotionally through the process. They’re a wonderful organization, for sure.

Len 29:07
Mostly needed in most cases. I would think so. Although I always hear, it’s an amicable divorce or separation, it’s never really that way, is it?

Cyndy 29:19
You know what? I’ve had a few where people were just done. They had been together. I’m thinking of this one file where they had been together forever. They got together in high school and just grew apart over the years, and they were nearing retirement and decided, you know what, we just don’t want to be together when we retire. We want to go and do our own thing. We’re just living like roommates. And that was probably the most amicable one I’d ever done, but it didn’t go without some dispute over things, and we just had to get creative on how to meet the needs of both parties in order to move it forward. But occasionally we will get what’s called a desk divorce, where the parties have entered into their own agreement, done their own thing, but they just need the divorce. Processed those files don’t come to me. Those ones usually just get processed through our paralegals, so that the client isn’t paying for a lawyer. They’re just paying for paralegal at our firm to do the work, and then I review it and sign it at no charge. So then they pay, like a flat rate fee for a desk divorce. So I don’t usually see those amicable clients, other than that one I was telling you about, that’s usually my assistant who gets you through that. But at least you’ve got, so just as a caveat for everybody listening, paralegal services outside of a law firm are wonderful services. I know several paralegals who do excellent jobs, but it is buyer beware, because if they don’t get it right, you have no recourse, but if a lawyer messes up, you’ve got the recourse of our professional insurance. So one thing I’d like to tell people who are listening, use a paralegal service, but make sure you check their references, ask them if they have professional insurance, because some of them get that so that they do have insurance coverage, but if they don’t, just be very careful, if you like, they’re great if you don’t have a lot of assets, or if you don’t have a lot of complicated issues. But even so, one thing I would tell people is law firms also have paralegals, so ask your lawyer, if they’re paralegal, can do a desk divorce at a flat rate, so that you have the benefit of your lawyer’s insurance coverage, but it’s possible. So there are paralegal services within law firms as well, and sometimes people think, Oh, I have to go to a paralegal service because I can’t afford a lawyer. And that’s not necessarily the case, but even if you go on our website, which is www.resolvelegalgroup.com, there is a little button you can click on that says, can’t afford a lawyer, where we have listed several different options that are available to you when you can’t afford a lawyer, and we’ve also listed the pros and cons of each because they may or may not fit your family circumstances. So for instance, one of the things that we offer for people who can’t afford lawyers is we always have students. We’re a training facility. And oftentimes I will say, Well, if you can’t afford a lawyer, there’s the option of also hiring a student, which is really good value, because students cannot have any of their work product leave the firm without it being reviewed by senior counsel, so and approved by senior counsel. So it’s like you’re getting a senior lawyer at the cost of a student. So that’s the pro. But the con is sometimes it takes a little bit longer to see the work product, because you’ve got to have it go from the student to the senior council, and they’ve got to find time to review it and edit and whatnot. But if you’re not in an urgent rush, students are an excellent option, and we have other options available to you on there that people might not be aware of, like a limited scope retainer. So a lot of people don’t realize that you can hire a lawyer on what’s called a limited scope and you can define what they will and will not do. So I have a gal right now. Her matter is headed for trial. It’s big, it’s ugly, and there’s no way she can afford me to get her from start to finish on this thing. So I actually just had a conversation with her this morning and said, You know what, let’s put you on a limited scope retainer, and we will go through the litigation plan and piecemeal out what you need help with versus what you can represent yourself with. And that’s a more affordable option for her. So that’s the Pro. The con to that is, when you’re not dealing with the whole file and you’re just piecemealing it, sometimes you can miss little nuances where things cross over, or if somebody’s putting you on a limited scope just to advocate for them in court. But you haven’t done as a lawyer, the prep work they’ve done it. It can be difficult in that regard to present everything that needs to be presented when you haven’t put the background stuff together. So those can be challenges, but there are also challenges that can be worked around. But I just want people to get a really good idea about the pros and cons of each option, because if it’s not going to work for you, don’t spend the money on it wasn’t that long ago that I wasn’t a lawyer, and I know sometimes $100 can make or break whether you feed your kids that week, and I get that I’ve been there. So we want to choose our battles carefully on a limited scope and make sure that we’re not missing anything in the process, and it takes a while to kind of put that all together.

Len 34:46
Good advice, because, yes, it can get rather costly rather quickly. I remember, and it’s funny, because our lenders will when we look at credit bureaus and Equifax accredited, whatever that is, to review credit bureaus and, things like that. But so what we see a lot of times is a couple, not married will have owned the property together, had split up, and they have nothing together, no kids, nothing else. So what the lenders, in a lot of cases, ask, as far as the Stat Deck between the two of them saying they didn’t get divorced, there was nothing to get divorced over they weren’t legally married. Common Law, of course, comes into play. So even after the fact, in some cases, the lenders still ask us to get a Stat Deck from them, saying that nobody owes anybody anything. Is that just something that paralegals could do for them in your office?

Cyndy 35:39
Yeah, for sure, they can do a stat deck, no problem. One of the things that I will say when you’re in a circumstance like that, sometimes, like if it’s a refinance, obviously you would have to have that stat deck or a separation agreement. But just as an example of a file that I got where I felt like the lawyer on the other side was really taking advantage of the client. So I had this fellow come and see me, and he said, My partner and I were never married. We don’t have any joint assets other than this house, and we’re going to list the house for sale and split the proceeds. And here is a copy of the separation agreement that the other lawyer drafted. And I said, Well, why are you guys doing a Separation Agreement? Just sell the house. The money goes in trust, and you both sign a direction to pay where you both get half of the proceeds. You don’t need a Separation Agreement in that circumstance. And if you go to do a Separation Agreement, then we have to do a full exchange of financial disclosure, and that just costs money, so you’re spending money unnecessarily. So I got a hold of the other lawyer, and I said, Why are we doing a Separation Agreement here? And he said, well, my client just wants to make sure her rights are protected. And I said, Well, there’s no rights to protect if the money just gets paid out. And he said, well, just the I’ve done the agreement anyways, so just sign it. And I said, Well, you know, I can’t sign it without an exchange of financial disclosure, and that’s just going to cost our clients more money. And I said, so either we do the agreement with the disclosure or let’s just throw out the agreement and give your clients a credit, because we don’t need it, and I could not get them to throw out the agreement and give their clients a credit. So it ended up costing, well, it would have cost my guy a bunch of money to do the disclosure and all the rest of it. And I said to him, I don’t want to be charging you for work that’s unnecessary. So in that circumstance, my student needed experience. I said, let my student deal with this with you, and we’ll do it pro bono, because it’s I just can’t handle it when people are paying unnecessarily. It drives me crazy, but it happens now. Was that lawyer unethical? No, because legitimately, if his client wants his rights protected in an agreement, he’s following his client’s instructions, I probably would have been a little bit more assertive with my client to tell them, you don’t have to worry about your rights. Don’t spend this money. And even last night in the seminar we were teaching, one of the things that I was telling people is it’s always a good idea to work with your spouse on the tax breaks that you can get with having a child determined an equivalent to spouse. Oftentimes people will say, well, the high income earner should take that, because it makes more sense. And sometimes we’ll see arguments where the lower income earner is like, Well, no, I want to use it right? And they’ll get into arguments about it, and I always say, look, whoever is going to get the maximum benefit from it, let them file it, because it just makes more sense in the long run to do that. So I always say, try to get the tax credits so that they’re maximized in somebody’s jeans rather than the government’s pockets, right?

Len 39:01
That would be my thought, yes.

Cyndy 39:03
Because even if I’m not the one getting the benefit, even if it’s my spouse, and even though I may hate my spouse, I would still rather my spouse get it, because it’s going to trickle down to the kids. Why would you want to give it to the government? So again, I reiterate the message you have to love your children more than you hate your ex, so work with them and just get the maximum benefit, even if it works for the other side. I know that’s easier said than done, but trying to look at the big picture when you’re going through separation and divorce is key, because ultimately, your kids still love both of you. They don’t see you through the same lens that you see one another through. And really, if you align your values and what you’re wanting to get out of this with what’s in the best interest of the kids you can’t lose, that’s always the best way to go.

Len 39:55
It is. And that, on that note, we will end this conversation Cyndy and Martin. Appreciate your time today. I know you’re a busy person, and I’m very grateful for the input for our listeners today.

Cyndy 40:07
Well thank you very much for having me, and it’s been my pleasure, and let’s reconnect and get that seminar booked, because I think you’ve got some valuable information to share with clients, for sure.

Len 40:17
Thanks for listening today. I hope you found the information that we provided to be useful in your mortgage journey. And remember, you can always find our associates at www.brokersforlife.ca/associates. Have a great day.